Chapter 1: I Was Chosen to Be a Hindu Monk
Hi, welcome to Premier Unbelievable. I'm Luke Martin. My guest today is Rahil Patel. Rahil is a speaker and author based at the Oxford Center for Christian Apologetics. His work focuses on the relationship between Christianity and Hinduism. Rahul, welcome to Premier Unbelievable. Thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. So your story is fascinating to me. You were a Hindu monk for many years.
I believe it was 20 years and then you eventually converted to Christianity. Do you want to just tell our viewers and listeners a bit about your backstory? Sure. So my family are of Indian origin but my father grandfather had moved to East Africa in the 1800s. so we moved to the UK in the 60s, late60s. So when we moved to the UK, culturally at the time, families were very keen to congregate together every weekend and just be with other fellow Hindus and Indians just so that you don't lose culture or your cuisine or whatever language.
So we used to meet at a temple in north London and this tradition was quite an orthodox tradition and my family would go every weekend Saturday and Sunday we'd spend hours there and that was our social circle growing up in England. So I went to a nursery primary school that was quite Christian but weekends was very it was very Hindu and at home as well it was quite religious. We'd wake up every morning have a bath then have a prayer kit. You pray you then have your breakfast and then you go to school. When you come back from school you pray in the house shrine first.
Then you sit down, do your homework. Before the family sits together and eats, we go back into the house shrine at home. We pray for another half an hour. Then we eat. Then it's TV or whatever. And then before bedtime, we gather again in the house shrine and pray for another half an hour and then it's bedtime. So life growing up was deeply intertwined with this particular tradition within the Hindu world.
Okay. So Hinduism is many religions, not just one religion. We can talk about that later. So initially, you know, I can remember going as far as being 8-year-old, I found the weekends really stressful or tiring rather, sitting cross-legged on the floor, listening to these talks that I really never understood. But as I grew up, I I was fascinated with the idea of God to the point that, you know, I thought I would love to follow a path completely dedicated to this pursuit of God.
And so when I was 16, the guru of this tradition was in London. And by
Chapter 2: My Guru Changed My Life Forever
this time I was the head of the youth activities and I gave a speech in the congregation on Hindu scripture and he was very impressed. So typically traditionally once you finish your talk in the congregation if the guru is present you go and bow at his feet and you take his blessings. So I bowed at his feet and he said you should be a monk. You'd be a very good monk and that was it for me. I thought purpose, meaning everything I had in my head about God, you know, peace, just fulfillment that's been laid out by me, by my guru.
Now, in this tradition, the guru is the vessel of God on earth. So, it was for me and everyone else who was present that day as if God had told me what to do. So I was incredibly excited. Finished my GCSEs, my A levels and then left for India to train in a monastery which is quite intense. You wake up at 4:30 every morning, have a cold water bath, you pray for 45 minutes, then we all gather together in the temple for worship at 6:00.
Then you do chores. You clean the bathroom, the toilets, you help in the kitchen. You clean the grounds. First lecture starts at 8:20. And then it's classes after that on and off with breaks, lunch until 11:00 at night. So very intense academia, very intense disciplines. You can not get married. You mustn't intentionally look at a woman or talk to a woman. So celibacy vows were quite extreme. You're not paid.
You can't touch money. Even if you touch money accidentally, you wash your hands 25 times. And you can never talk to or meet your family, your parents ever again. So the vows of detachment and being attached to God are incredibly you took those vows at the beginning of your at the beginning. formation your studies. Yeah. So just to give you an idea back then I entered into the monastery in 1991 at that which part of India was this?
In northwest India, Gujarat. Okay. Okay. So currently in the UK in the UK Indian population I'd say close to half if not more than half are of Gujarati origin. Okay. Which is because of the East Africa connection. Is that north of New Delhi? Northwest of India. Okay. It borders Pakistan. Okay. Got it. And just under Rajasthan. So the monastery. Yeah. It it's a beautiful place in the middle of very arid land 250 acres.
So as I was saying just to give an idea of the intensity in the first year about 45% are sent home of applicants meaning you're not going to make this you know and they're released from their voice then are they okay? So the first year you live according to as if you are already a monk but you can still meet family on you know a few occasions but the whole setup is created around you so that you know this is this is what life's going to be like right no women no money no pay you fast six times a a month which is 36 hours without food and water in 40 Celsius I remember you know one morning I got up and I was literally in tears cuz I was so dehydrated without water as well. Without water.
Chapter 3: The Voice That Shook My Faith
So it was in that first month though, Luke, I was prostrating in front of the images up in the temple and I heard this voice. It wasn't audible. There were 150 of us in in that batch and I was prostrating to the images and I heard this voice say, "Have you made the right decision? Are you in the right place?" And it really shook me. But like in Christianity, you have Satan. In that world, you have the concept of an evil force which is Maya.
So I thought, "Okay, it's just Maya distracting me from my destiny." But I couldn't ignore the authenticity of that of that nudge. I don't want to claim it was audible in that in that way. And by this time I started having questions because you know I was doing all these practices or meditation, chanting, worshiing, fasting, scripture reading disciplines but I didn't sense any internal change. So I sat with the guru.
I said to him, "Look, I'm doing all this, but nothing's changing." He said, "Look, it takes time. These things don't change overnight." And then I wasn't being cheeky. I just said, "Look, I'm looking around and all these other senior monks or who have been monks for 30, 40 years, I don't see any change in them either." I meant internal like attitude, sort of what Christians call heart posture. It's it's not what Hindus would say.
But so you were claiming that these senior monks weren't sort of moral inspirations to you. Is that what you mean? Or or that they didn't have that spiritual connection? Yeah. That you were hoping for. Not not that spiritual connection, you know, just bad tendencies, bad behavior. Lots of let me use a Christian term so that your audience can understand. lots of legal holy rituals and rules like myself.
But what a Christian would call call like kindness or compassion or healthy relationships or you know those things or issues of the heart were still prevalent is my was my bottom line to the guru after decades. Yeah. Yeah. after seeing these these folk who have been around for decades. I was still six months in or something like that. So he said you think too much which is quite a typical thing authority tends to tell you in in that world.
So I left the room but I was grateful because he always gave me personal time. I didn't have to go through any sort of system or sort of hierarchy to just to meet him. I was quite favored even though there were 800 other monks. So I finished my training for five six years. I came to London in 1997 and I was given the position to develop Europe and Russia. So I was excited because in that six years of training in the monastery, not only did I have questions about my internal world, my health was really bad.
So I was grateful that I was sent back to London to look after Europe and Russia. So I thought, let's just get busy. Let's let's get cracking and build the network across Europe. So I was Were you in a monastery here or a community here? o there's a beautiful temple in London in Nisden. That's where I was based. It's a marble temple and there were 16 of us at the time in 1997. Everyone had their own responsibilities and mine was to spread the Hindu word across Europe and Russia.
So I was on you know doing around 60 90,000 miles a year. things grew. You know, we built a temple in Belgium, Portugal, centers in France, in Austria, Switzerland, in Norway, Sweden, Italy, and so on and so forth. And things grew really fast and I was impressed, the guru was impressed. But then, you know, once that success sort of becomes monotonous, those questions start to arise again, right? What about me?
What about my world? my internal world why are things not changing and I started delving into other Hindu scriptures outside of this particular tradition couldn't find any satisfaction read a lot of work by other practitioners who had done different kinds of meditations different kind of fastings then it just got so bad look I started reading self-help books to see if I could change something inside my my my world, my inner world. And then it during this time things were running really well. I had a small congregation in Rome.
Chapter 4: Why Jesus Wouldn't Leave Me Alone
I went there. There was only 19 in the congregation and they took me to the Vatican and the Systeine Chapel. Now you may want to visualize this. I'm in my orange robes in the cyine chapel and the Swiss guards knew about my vows so they gave me a special place to sit ironically in hindsight under the painting of the last judgment by Michelangelo and I still remember this moment. I was sitting there looking up.
Obviously the frescos are Michelangelo and where I was seated on the left you had the stories of Jesus by Potchelli and on the right John the Baptist and I remember looking at the stories of Jesus and I had forgotten what they were but I said these words to myself very quietly. I said this makes sense. It's so simple. And I don't know why I said that, where it came from. I went back upstairs into the main basilica and I was just drawn to the pieta.
Sure, I I knew the artist behind it and and the beauty of the structure, but there was something so attractive about Jesus on the lap of Mary. and I'm in my orange robes and now this is really sort of playing on my mind. Why why is this so attractive? So I gathered a secret fascination for Christ without admitting it to myself. But just clarify, what do you mean when you said it it makes sense when you I'm sure you maybe in the moment you you you weren't sort of reflective, but I'm sure you've reflected on a sense.
What was it you were getting at? I I think what I wanted to acquire in my internal world, what I was hoping for by following this path. I think this this guy in these mosaics could make that quite simple for me. He could make that path quite simple. I'm trying not to use Christian terms here for the sake of your viewers. If I think of that day where and when I was seated, when I mean simple, I also mean brutally honest.
When I say simple, I mean no facade. When I mean simple, I mean there's something raw and something quite tangible about this this guy's story, Christ story. And the world I was in had so many layers to justify bad answers to good questions or bad behavior. you know, oh, you just don't have faith. Well, why did the guru do this then for that person and not this for that person? Well, whatever the guru does, it's divine.
The issue is in your mind, right? And today I see a lot of Hindus are told this stuff. If you question it, you're an anarchist or you're you don't have the divinity in your eyes. Your mind is polluted. Do you see what I mean? Yeah. And that day that was a confrontation of simplicity that that this person there is something really raw and real and tangible here. There's there's no facade here, you know.
And that's the kind of the word simple. That's why that came out. It's fascinating. I I don't want to push it too much more, but I mean because you could have had these pictures of some Hindu guru on the on the wall, but these pictures of Jesus just stood out. was was it what he was doing? Or were you following the stories? Or was it almost omething that's kind of difficult in to put into words that was communicated by the the really the gift of the artist that was commun communicating the character of Jesus to you in a way that's hard to put your finger on.
There's a the the the the Christian idea of beauty that points towards someone that your heart really longs for even though you don't know it is quite quite a fascinating idea. Now I at the time wouldn't have used the word beauty, you know, but there was the artistry did reveal a sense of longing that I didn't know I had. That's the first thing. at the second level in hindsight when I reflect on those days cuz I did walk in and out of churches a lot after that and I had a very senior role so people didn't question me I just said look I'm just learning from these Christians there was something tangible what Christians today call the presence of God in that space there was something tangible Hindus do have that antenna of spirituality for atmospheres for spaces they do have the even though they don't call it that or may not acknowledge it they can they can sense something very very quickly I'd say yes they haven't been affected by decades of the sort of reductionistic scientific approach to life that we have in in the west quite as much so there's more openness to more openness like in India today any intellectual academic or millionaire billionaire you know if you say do you believe in the supernatural it's like hello is the pope Catholic do you know what I mean it's not it's not a word it's not a term it is normal normal way of life you see so fast forward these encounters continued very subtle very small and my theology started changing a little about God. The work was still continuing.
Europe was flourishing, but my health was deteriorating as well. This fascination
Chapter 5: My Faith Began to Fall Apart
with Christ was going on. And we fast forward to 2010 and I ended up in the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, Florida. And I had five doctors overseeing my case. And they were puzzled. Why are you having all these issues at the age of 39? One of them is still a friend of mine and I was still asked to speak and teach around the US at the time on weekends. But that was kind of like a forced what Christians call rest where you can't let the busyiness dampen the questions you have in your heart and things started to crystallize but not not to the extent that I thought and spent 10 months there came back to London some things recovered in my body others not I thought let's go and see the guru in India you know he's still my father he's still my guru and all my eggs are in this basket so let's finish this path and I landed in Mumbai in 2011 and as I went into the temple in Mumbai where he was based at the time one of my colleagues said look there's a there's a big dispute about some of your recent talks now in that world I had a fairly influential position when it came to speaking So people would come to hear me speak and I was preaching a a bigger god without making it so explicit.
I was preaching a a god beyond the borders of a temple or icons in a temple or a guru. And I was also fascinated as to why people were drawn to these talks. Now I used to tell people please don't record this talk. They thought I was being humble. I was basically saying I don't believe a lot of what I'm reading in the Hindu text anyway. But they would record it. Now that had gone to the top. So I went to see the guru and for the first time you know it wasn't just me in the room.
It was other very senior monks and the debate took off about my theology, my doctrine. And fast forward that meeting, he sort of felt as a punishment to stop me to keep me in a village in India. I said, "No, I'm going to go back to England. That's my home." He said, "Okay, I'll put you in a small town in America." I said, "No, I'm going to go back to England." And then everyone started debating again.
Chapter 6: I Walked Away After 20 Years
It was really intense. Really, really intense. Just even remembering it today, it was like it's heavy. Then it just came out of my mouth. Luke, I don't know how. I said, I don't want to be a monk anymore. Can I just go home? This is after 20 years. And he said, fine, you know, go on two conditions. You never give a talk again in your life. I said fine because I didn't believe a word I said anyway.
And we won't let anyone talk to you that you know over the last 20, 30 years. I kind of got that as harsh as it was because I knew the how healthy that place really was. So it wasn't it wasn't a surprise. I said fair enough. And you know I mustn't talk to anyone. So gave me two pairs of trousers, two shirts that evening and I left took my flight back to London. My family had moved overseas. A friend said, "Look, come and stay in my hotel in South Kensington and we'll figure out what to do next."
I thought, "Well, we landed in December back in London. What do you do at the age of 40, right? Nobody cares that you met this prime minister or that president as a monk and what have you done for paid work." I said to my friend like, "I need a CV." He said, "Just relax for four weeks. Just do nothing. Just walk around." I was really disappointed with my my quest. You know, the time I'd lost. I'd done a 2,000mi pilgrimage across India bathed in the river Ganges, the Yamuna.
I climbed sacred mountains, the Girinat mountain three times, which is like 10,000 steps, all that fasting. And I thought, I'm I'm not pursuing this anymore. you know, I'm I'm sure I'll have some spiritual dimension about me, but that's enough. And so, according to my friend's, you know, wish, I just walked around London for a few days, not concerned about job, what to do next. And I thought, let's go to South Kensington Station and let's go into the, you know, deeper into the West End city.
And as I was walking I towards the station. It was a Sunday morning about two weeks into Jan. And my head
Chapter 7: "You're Home" – My Encounter with Jesus
literally turned. I had no reason to turn. It just turned. And I saw this church down this really quiet road. I thought, "Okay, this must be like the ones I've seen in Europe with all the beautiful gold and paintings and mosaics and granite and whatnot. Let's go and have a look at the artwork." As I'm out for a walk anyway, then I'll go into the West End. So, I went down this road and and there were these two guys waiting at the entrance of this church, you know, with these incredible smiles as if they'd eaten a banana sideways.
It was like creepy kind of love oozing from them, you know, and they said, "Hi, hello." And I'm like, "Oh, I don't even know you." I'd never seen people at the entrance of the Vatican sort of welcoming people in. I didn't know it was a service anyway. I just ignored them and walked past them. And then as I walked past them and I stepped into the church. At that moment, the presence of God just fell on me so powerfully.
And I felt this blanket of peace just wrap around me. And that voice that I heard 20 years ago came back and it said, "You're home. You're home." And I just felt so rooted and grounded in that moment. I remember where I was standing. It wasn't even inside the church. It's that little space in between. I went upstairs, sat in the pew, and I'd never seen worship on drums and guitars before. That was a surprise, but I I just felt this sense of joy that I never knew existed.
Heard the sermon, didn't tell anyone who I was. So went back to my hotel room. The manager of the hotel a few years ago showed me the room that I was in and I sat on the corner of the bed and I gave my life to Christ which was fascinating for me because as a monk I used to challenge so many ideas. You know they would hold board meetings sometimes while I was in Europe because they felt if I'm there I'll change the direction of the meeting. I wasn't being an anarchist.
I was just challenging. And I was always questioning and asking and questioning. So that was that was my my encounter with Christ. And I, you know, several months later got baptized. Then everything unfolded after that. It's amazing story. Thank you for it. Now, we're going to take a quick break. We'll be back in two or three minutes for more. We need to take a short break. Make sure you're following us on social media.
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[music] Why not sign up for the course or gift it to a friend? Find out more at premierunbelievable.com. So, Rahul, that was 14 years ago that you converted to Christianity. Since then, you've been speaking, you're back speaking, but not not as a Hindu, but as a Christian with the Oxford Center for Christian Apologetics and other other Christian organizations and churches. You've written a book about your conversion.
What's the book called, Ian? Found by Love. Found by Love. And so 14 years in, how do you understand now this the relationship between Christianity, your new foundine faith and Hinduism which we were brought up in?
Chapter 8: From Earning God to Finding Grace
So that's a brilliant question. In the beginning when I when I gave my life to Christ, what was the [sighs] what was hardest for me was moving from a worksbased religion to a relationship. So my initial questions were okay now what do I do for Jesus? What shall I do? What shall I do? When close friends and teaching was telling me can you rest at his feet and develop a relationship with him and have an intimate relationship with Christ.
And you know I came from a world that you you please God. You appease God through your practices, your rituals, your disciplines. And it was really hard for me to reconcile this idea that you are loved, you know, in your brokenness. I thought, what does that even mean, brokenness, right? There's no acknowledgement of brokenness from the world I'd come from. So I'll be honest that took two three years to just grapple with that cuz you come from a world about karma which is doing good karma doing good action and now you're in a world of grace right there are complete opposites your heart tendencies are always how do I prove to Jesus I'm worth it.
How do I prove to my colleagues I'm worth being loved? And unpacking that, catching that is still hard. It was extremely hard at that time. So at the heart level that's that's the relationship or the connection that I personally had to really really go for you know in a in a deep way which is uncomfortable. It was really challenging cuz it's it's a kind of stripping away of another idol that you have in your heart that I can do this for God.
I can do that for God. I can do this for God. So from religion to relationship that transition was hard and I still have to catch myself in that not to st start proving performing or striving you know as Dallas Willard said the opposite of grace is earning not effort. So we still we still have to you know we still work in that in that way as you as you know Luke. So that that's the first thing at at my personal level.
That's what I struggled with. That's what I had to confront and that's what I had to let God work on. But then as I as you said I wrote the book I started traveling speaking in Europe, America, India. I noticed how a lot of theologians, Christian theologians, some historians and evangelicals in particular tried to address this this this world and so much of it was inaccurate.
Chapter 9: Why Christians Often Misunderstand Hindus
Let me give you a story. Some years ago, there was a a mission event in the south of India. Now, you've been to Chennai, you said. So there's a city called Maduray in the south where the famous Minachi temple is currently to this day and the Christians got permission from the local authorities to hold an event in that in that city and for that they got permission to write on certain walls about the event. So they wrote on various walls in this city Jesus is the answer.
You turn a few corners and you see another billboard. Jesus is the answer. Few corners. Jesus is the answer. So the Hindus then responded to that by acquiring permission as well from the local authority to write on other billboards. o they wrote, "What's the question right now?" That then that many years ago ought to be a wakeup call. And I've seen this often where theologians, evangelicals, or Christians in general, they they look for Christian answers to Christian questions in that world that isn't really looking for Christian answers to Christian questions.
Does that make sense? Yeah. So, a Christian question would be a western question. Do you know you're a sinner? What does that even mean? I understand I've got bad karma. I understand that my karma is leading to my suffering, my pain, my happiness. I understand that I have to outweigh my bad karma with good karma so that my soul otherwise known as my atma doesn't have another birth on earth. Right?
So Christians go straight in. You need salvation. First of all, you need to go into that world. What is it that they seek? Right? and how can Christ fulfill that? So that was a huge gap in the way I saw Christians were trying to reach out to Hindus and and look with genuine intentions. I I don't want to push all their efforts aside and say it was all nonsense. It was just genuine intentions. It is a very complex world.
There's no founder. There's no foundational book. There are many Hindu religions. It's not one religion. There are no set beliefs. You can't ask a Hindu, what are your beliefs? You ask them, what are your practices? Right? So that's the right question to ask. What is your practice? What's your methods? I understand that a little about your world. You want to liberate your soul from birth and rebirth.
So what's your practices for that? I believe you do rituals. You do tithing. you said. So that's the kind of conversation instead of going you need salvation. Jesus died for you. So you know I I'm a huge fan of the late Tim Keller in one of his podcast sermons. He said Jesus is the only person in world history who came to die. That is true. But you're preaching to the choir. He need to explain to this world why someone like Christ needed to die.
Yeah. So a lot of Christian claims are made on Christian terms and that's not wrong. It's just not effective. So I was at Plymouth University on a on a mission weekend some years ago and a Hindu came up to me afterwards. So I we had a lovely rich conversation and I thought let me give him a book from our book shop at the time and there was a book with a title something like do all religions lead to God something like that and I just quickly looked at the table of contents and there was a title that said Jesus is the greatest teacher of all because he defeated the greatest barrier of all which is death.
I thought great when you're preaching to the choir. Hindus don't care about death. Neither do James. Neither do Sikhs or Buddhists. When I came to Christ Luke, I found it so strange when I saw Christians dancing, jumping up and down, singing, "Death is defeated. Death is defeated." I thought, "What's the big deal?" Because in that world, death isn't an end point. Even with my liberal culturally mixed western cousins who are Hindus, when someone dies in the family, there's never a there's never that obviously there's sadness.
There's there's morning, but there's never that idea of an end point. Just casually, everyone says he's in a better place. He's in the next place. Right? So that's my personal relationship on my own journey from religion to relationship. I hope that's answered some of your question. And then the relationship currently between the Christian world and Hinduism. That is the significant gap that I see in when you want to minister to Hindus.
It's about bridging into that world. Because when you look at all the practices right they reveal a longing they reveal an ache. Okay. So when I first entered the monastery on my first day I was the the jeep was going towards the monastery and I and I say this in my in my next book that the driver slowed down because there was a group of people prostrating on the tarmac and they were standing up moving a few steps to the place where their hands were prostrating again standing up and I thought what they doing I said he said they're doing a dunad yatra. I said, "What's that?"
You know, they said, "Well, they're prostrating from Krishna, the Avatar Krishna's birthplace in Duara to Reund where he had most of his ministry." I said, "How far is that?" He said, "Ah, it's about, you know, 1,300 km." and he just swerved as if he had just avoided a pothole and dri drove off as if that's the normal thing you do like prostrating on. And now if Christians saw that they'll say they might say sorry I don't want to assume how legalistic look at that striving look at that performance.
I say well look at the longing for a connection. M yeah that's interesting and that ties into this question of how Christians
Chapter 10: Can Hinduism and Christianity Both Be True?
then view Hinduism and and Hindus religious pluralism states that God or reality is like the the elephant and all of us religious people were like these blind men that are touching different parts of the elephant. Some are holding the the teal, the trunk, the legs, etc. And we all we all we're all touching something that feels different, but it's it's all actually the same thing. That's what religious pluralists think. So So they'll say, you know, you've moved from one religion to another, but really really they're all getting at at the same thing.
Now, don't want to get into a huge critique of of religious pluralism, but but how do you view Hinduism now? Do you think that it is a a place that God could be found? The God that you understand as a Christian God. Do you think that that that people are having religious experiences as as Hindus that are experiences of Christ? Is the Holy Spirit at work in that religion? What do you think? Two three things from your your brilliant question and observation.
I do believe that there are dimensions of Christ in other faiths and other cultures. That does not mean they have access to the father. Otherwise, the cross becomes insignificant and you end up having a cruel god for sacrificing his son if there are many ways to God. But there are dimensions of Christ in other faiths and other cultures. Okay. If there is a phrase that could encapsulate that better, the church is in the kingdom, but not all of the kingdom is in the church.
There are kingdom principles around us that you don't find always in western churchianity, but they are in they are from Christ. Okay? Christ is the giver of those beautiful principles and ideas and dimensions. Community is one thing. community, how you do life, right? my first encounter with loneliness was when I became a Christian in the west. Of course, I had spiritual loneliness. But you were never meant to have an evening meal on your own.
It hit me hard in the western Christian church when I was eating on my own the main meal of the day. Right now we can have a debate about that or whatever but for a Hindu who comes to faith in the west that's a massive shock right and so one of the disadvantages I I see in the western Christian culture is you know you have a home group once a week or you go to Sunday and then when you meet you meet for an hour coffee where in that world okay it's less so now after generations but still in that world you're in and out of each other's lives a lot right many events are Hindu or culturally Indian or just family events and it's all mixed up okay I'm not saying there are no lonely people in that world I'm not saying there are no depressed people in that world or have anxiety issues but the structures that are there although intrusive at times do help a lot you know and I see that with my own extended family how they function. My cousins are western, but they're in their parents' home every other weekend. Does that make sense? Sure.
Yeah. Going back to the your example of the elephant that first originated in the Jane text, the Jane world religion in the fifth century. And I'm answering your question because it's a beautiful question. And the James when they wanted to counter bad karma and only do good karma their idea was one of their many ideas was how can we get a glimpse of God. So in their intense practices of fasting vegetarianism not eating anything from the ground right they separated from the vic world there was no concept of Hindu in the fifth century.
Hinduism is a 18th century term. So with their intense practices, fasting da they felt this guy's got something over here a glimpse of God. Now when they mean a glimpse of God they mean I can steady my mind to some degree here where I'm not feeling suffering or pain or happiness. I don't have ups and downs. I I I've got something. Okay. Then the Buddhists adopted that elephant idea. It comes in Buddhist text I think in one of the bodhic sattwas around the 3rd century.
Then the Sufis took on that elephant thing in the 13th century. Now when the British orientalists went into India in the 1700s and Sir William Jones established the yiatic society, one of the beautiful things they did was to revive Sanskrit text and translate it into English and make it common for all to read not just the highcast brahinss. So when they saw example when they saw this story of the elephant and the people coming from Jane then Buddhism and then entering into Sufi and Hinduism they thought ah these guys think there are many truths okay but that's not the that wasn't the aim of that analogy of the elephant it was a glimpse of God right it was a it it can I or God consciousness can I touch the divine. Right? Now to answer your question, when you read the works of Arvinda for example, a a great Hindu philosopher established a a an incredible Hindu organization.
when you read I've read his work transcendental mind letters and his meditations are intense but there's there's nothing about me glimpsing god after all of that he went into silence for 17 years I went to his ashram in the south of India right when you look at vivean's works and his practice another great philosopher the Ram Krishna mission is popular in the west there's no okay maybe a glimpse of god now When we in the Christian world say I met with Christ, we mean not an intellectual idea, but we have a tangible presence of God in our life. Regardless how broken we are, how sinful we are, we can sit and enjoy the presence of God where joy who is a person, he he he comes into our world. His peace, you know, engulfs our world. So when you go back to the fifth century to look at those five, seven folk who were looking at different parts of the elephant, what they were searching for, not knowing is what we have through grace, which is the tangible presence of God. Okay?
They weren't seeking truth in that western Christian sense. But when you look at all the works, different Hindu traditions, there is no evidence that suggests that there is this incredible presence that we have on offer today. Does that answer your question? Yeah. Fascinating. Fascinating. Some people claim that there are sort of there's like a dark side to some of these Eastern religions. you've got these some some some claim I'm just putting this to you as I guess an objection that you've got idol worship others in the other side will say no that's very narrow-minded you should have a much more inclusive approach to viewing these other religions what's your view do you think there is I mean darker element for for culturally for cultural engagement healthy engagement.
It's best not to use the word idol worship. It's best to use the word image worship. Hindus are are very offended with the word idol mainly because of centuries of Islamic invasions into India and mocking Hindus of idol worship. Then then the 17th 18th centuries not all Christians in India were nice in their language. Look, it it was a different period. Okay, so idol worshippers d So the push back was in that period.
No, we're not worshiping idols. They're just representations of God, but they're not really but they are really in that world representations of God. So that's just a cultural sensitive thing. I just thought for your audience, use image of worship when you want to engage or even challenge. Just use that word. It it just helps. It's it's quite a loaded word for that. And I'm not saying dumb down the gospel.
I'm just saying if you want inroads, just be a bit culturally sensitive. look, there are the Hindu world is is so complex. There are elements of Hinduism that are dark that a lot of orthodox Hindus or mainstream Hindus would themselves want to disassociate with, right? And that's the tantric side of of Hinduism or the karmasutras. And to be fair, you can't claim that's not Hinduism. Even though some Hindus, mainstream Hindus will say that, but it is a part of it is a part of that world.
If you read nine lives, it's it's a brilliant book by historian, travel historian William Dal Rimple. It's about nine people he travels with in India and he he travels with a a dantra who who do drink blood from human skulls right they do live in graveyards this is in modernday India which is going to be the third largest economy in two years time whose you know purchasing power parity overtook Britain in 2015 15. They're sending satellites into space. They are quite advanced in AI. And yet there is also this as well, right?
So there is a significant portion of the Hindu world that's uncomfortable with this side of the Hindu world and the kind of worship that goes on, temple sacrifices or or or you know, whatever else. But you can't they can't deny that it's not Hinduism because no one has authority over who says what's Hindu and not Hindu. Right. In in a way no one can say that cuz this these guys existed for centuries. Mhm.
Fascinating. We're going to take another break now. We'll be back in a few minutes. The mind and brain are connected, but the scientific data doesn't enable you to establish the nature of that connection or the relationship. Just because science can't demonstrate that physical processes and mental processes are the same thing, that in and of itself doesn't give you any evidence that that's not the case either.
Some people talk about seeing deceased relatives and communicating with them. This idea of floating up out of your body and watching things happen and being able to describe it afterwards that could be formed in your imaginative mind. Conscious experience and brain processes are two fundamentally different things. I wonder if we're talking about You like me to go out for a bit? You guys seem really [laughter] happy.
[music] So Rahil, let's move to cultural issues.
Chapter 11: Did Christianity Shape Modern India?
What's going on in Britain? What's going on in in the Western world? You have this really interesting perspective because you know the West, but you also know the Eastern world as well. So given your extensive work on Christianity and Hinduism, how how how are you relating that to what we're seeing going on in wider western culture at the moment? Well, thank you. you know, the sad, one of the sad things you find in Britain is this, and I see this in a lot of white Christians as well, who despise their history, despise empire and just assume that it was just all bad all the time.
You know, the colonial col colonialism was just bad all the time. And that might be your opinion, but that's not true. That's just not what the evidence suggests. When I look at India, okay, I'm going to focus on India. And that country would not exist as a nation if it wasn't for Britain. Sure, it would have caught up at some point, but much later it wouldn't have the institutions it has if it wasn't for Britain.
So there's there's this thing in the west in Britain especially that everything Britain did was just bad. And you know I'm reminded as you're asking this question of Charles Trevlin he wrote a piece evangelical Christian I think 1838 it was how do we train the Indian mind on the concept of freedom. Okay. Now, I alluded to earlier in this conversation that the concept of freedom for a Hindu for centuries was the liberation of this soul from birth and rebirth. The liberation from the bondage of this body and the bondage of this world.
That's freedom. Okay. Charles Revan, William Bentik, others. How do we teach them about freedom from another nation so that they can self-govern? Okay, same period. I think it's his brother-in-law, son-in-law, Lord Babbington McCauley does a speech in parliament 1835 and in that speech he said is it is our moral duty to teach the Indian mind the importance of self-governance. Right. So yes, there were some Brits who wanted to rule India forever, but that was not the mainstream mindset, especially the evangelical Christians, those who were connected to the Clappen sect like Charles Grant.
It's our duty to teach this very idea of freedom from another nation and independence and self-governance. Now few years ago Dr. Manuan Singh former prime minister of India late Man Singh brilliant mind economist he liberalized the Indian economy in the '9s to the point where it was growing at about 8 8 n%. Former chairman of the Reserve Bank of India he gave a speech at Oxford University. He was given an honorary degree there.
And he said in his opening speech, he said, "We did not reject the truth of British governance in India. We merely asserted our own right to self-governance." He's basically saying, "We're not saying it was bad. We just wanted to do it ourselves." Now let's look at that from a Christian point of view. What do you mean we? If you look at the Indian constitution today, it starts with the words we the people of India.
So as a Hindu or a Sikh or a Jane or with this who taught you the idea of we that covenantal idea. Now let's see what the Indian historians say and British historians. Before the 1700s there was no idea of identity as we call it today in the Indian mind because there was no history. Even if you read Manu Pilai, his gods, guns and missionaries, very popular book today in the west and in India, he lays out clearly just as much as a British historian like John Key does that history was never an academic discipline in that world. It was only after the establishment of the Asiatic society that it became so.
And when the Brits started revealing Sanskrit text about past did the indic start getting an idea of history and as a result identity. So when you say we the people of India who taught you that very Christian Judeo-Christian idea of we as a covenantal people. Okay. So that comes from the west and then you know the ideas of we talked earlier about Gandhi. He read the sermon on the mount and he said it's not just a great spiritual document but the greatest political document of all time.
Okay. And in 1904 when he read John Ruskkins unto this last which is an exposition of Matthew 20 Ruskin published in 1864 Gandhi then understood the concept of oppression. Right? So we in the west or even the Indians today just assume that these ideas of oppression marginalized voiceless they just existed. You just don't know how much. So does this tie into the Tom Holland thesis that we talk about a lot on this show that Tom Holland thesis very much basically that western values you can say freedom from oppression or something like that that that those are Christian values.
Are you claiming that those sort of values they they basically were imported from well they were introduced from the west into India. Not only that they weren't imposed reformers and philosophers in the 18th 19th century like Ram Moan Roy you know he helped William Carry translate the Bible but when he then started translating the Bible for Carrie he understood my god this is this is brilliant stuff he knew in his life that Jesus was someone special but he didn't believe him to be the only god then Roy himself started Ed bringing in Christian ideas into Hinduism. So what you see today is reformed Hinduism even in India in large parts. For example, going to a church going to a temple on a Sunday. So the Indian philosopher thought we need to have gatherings like the Christians do.
Okay, let's get to let's let's do that in a temple. When I was a 1 hourmonk, we did songs first and then it was a sermon. That's a direct adoption of 1 hour, 6 secondsthe Christian practice, right? But then he also wrote a book called the precepts of Jesus. So a lot of Christ's teachings 1 hour, 15 secondswere then implemented into Hindu doctrine into scripture into ideas that became very popular.
1 hour, 24 secondsThen obviously the Brits who are some secular, some liberal, some Christian, some unitarian whatever still on sitting 1 hour, 33 secondson the foundation of Christianity took ideas of institutions into India, freedom of press. So when Carrie wrote 1 hour, 41 secondsthe first newspaper friends of India in the se late 1700s right he was criticizing the British East India 1 hour, 48 secondsCompany in his newspaper and to his surprise the Indian intelligencia the senior Brahmin cast 1 hour, 57 secondshigh-profile said you can do that you're questioning authority 1 hour, 1 minute, 5 secondsyou can actually do that right when so Carrie just understood that oh 1 hour, 1 minute, 12 secondsmy god we just live in this world where we speak truth to power this concept of accountability 1 hour, 1 minute, 19 secondsoh that's not there you have a cast system there a Brahmin could kill a 1 hour, 1 minute, 25 secondsdalid simply if he crossed his path right and the British abolished that you look at women 1 hour, 1 minute, 34 secondswe all know of sati the burning of the widow once the husband dies, you know, she would burn alive on the funeral p. 1 hour, 1 minute, 42 secondsIt was quite well spread across the whole of India. You know, spiritual leaders like Swaminar 1 hour, 1 minute, 50 secondspartnered with folk like Sir John Malcolm and said, "Can you help us abolish this? We understand in your world view, you have this idea 1 hour, 1 minute, 59 secondsof made in the image of God."
Now, the British didn't want to impose that, but okay, let's get a few people and stop that. How how widespread was this practice? 1 hour, 2 minutes, 10 secondsSo it was quite prevalent in Bengal. It was quite prevalent in the south of it 1 hour, 2 minutes, 16 secondsin Chennai that region in Mumbai. Now what you'll hear in the culture wars is 1 hour, 2 minutes, 22 secondsthat it wasn't widespread.
Okay, the Christians and the westerners just exaggerated it to impose on us rules. 1 hour, 2 minutes, 32 secondsBut that's not true. It was there from the medieval period. If you read the text of Mahabharat Ramayan, these are 1 hour, 2 minutes, 40 secondstwo great Hindu epics like Iliad Odyssey, but they are much larger than both of those both those books. When you 1 hour, 2 minutes, 48 secondslook at the women characters in those books and you see how they are treated, this is in 3rd century BC by the way.
1 hour, 2 minutes, 58 secondsYou see that carried forward even in the early middle ages. So Aniud Kiceti is a 1 hour, 3 minutes, 5 secondsbrilliant historian who's right written extensively on this that you can't say that this was an exaggerated thing in 1 hour, 3 minutes, 12 secondsthe British Empire. It existed right for hundreds and hundreds of years before these guys came along. So 1 hour, 3 minutes, 21 secondsyou know this idea of a nation state in India the very laws that Indians talk about 1 hour, 3 minutes, 30 secondswhether it's human rights or dignity for women special carriages on trains for just women right 1 hour, 3 minutes, 40 secondsthey come from somewhere they come from somewhere and they come from the Christian foundation 1 hour, 3 minutes, 48 secondsthey come from what the British did for India and you know even if you want to take look a Marxist historian sort of view of it. 1 hour, 4 minutesNow just to let you know in the 70s Vikram Sambat the historian in India has 1 hour, 4 minutes, 6 secondsalso said this publicly in until the late '7s you could only write history in India if it was through a Marxist 1 hour, 4 minutes, 14 secondsnarrative oppressed oppressor no nuance no nuance you know but how readers in 1 hour, 4 minutes, 21 secondsthe west especially Christian leaders I've seen they won't read works by Danka Roy Indian born at the London school of 1 hour, 4 minutes, 29 secondseconomics or Kartal Alwani Indianborn founder of Vitbiotics or the late Zar Masani who 1 hour, 4 minutes, 38 secondsare just he's an atheist by the way is a friend of mine you know these are Indian folk from India who have got nothing to 1 hour, 4 minutes, 47 secondsdo with Christianity but they are telling you exactly what I'm telling you now right in their work you read their work 1 hour, 4 minutes, 56 secondsand is it controversial is it controversial in their world.
1 hour, 5 minutesOh, controversial. They get lots of credit, but you know, Zer got a lot of push back in his Oxford Union address. 1 hour, 5 minutes, 7 secondsYou should see the kind of heckling he got. It's incredible. 1 hour, 5 minutes, 10 secondsI mean, is it controversial in in in sort of the world of India scholarship rather than in the Western world? 1 hour, 5 minutes, 16 secondsIt's not controversial for those who know.
1 hour, 5 minutes, 19 secondsIt's just not popular. right nowadays it's YouTube X oneliners no scholarship that kind of 1 hour, 5 minutes, 28 secondsthing so I think you know Roger Scrutin said it's 1 hour, 5 minutes, 36 secondsquite clearly we we live in a UK where it's oohilia versus ooaphobia love of home versus despise of home 1 hour, 5 minutes, 46 secondsand if you don't understand British colonialism in India thoroughly with nuance. I'm not saying there weren't atrocities. Of course, there were. 1 hour, 5 minutes, 57 secondsThere would just not be an India as we noted today.
You know, there just would not be. I can't see how I can't see how 1 hour, 6 minutes, 6 secondsthere would be India. And it's not about the trains or the schools. I mean the first ever statef funed school took 1 hour, 6 minutes, 14 secondsplace in India be 60 years before state funed schools took place in Britain. Sure we had the 1 hour, 6 minutes, 22 secondsparish ch schools here and the Brits said to the Indians do you want Sanskrit colleges we'll start suns 1 hour, 6 minutes, 30 secondsand 100,000 rupees was given in the 1860s for it they said no ram roy kashab jand 1 hour, 6 minutes, 39 secondsthey said we don't want sanskrit we want English because we want access to your world right so I think 1 hour, 6 minutes, 47 secondsin culture today there's this constant apologizing, forgive me, especially from white 1 hour, 6 minutes, 55 secondsChristians.
And it's very cringy. It's very cheesy. It's lacking evidence. It's 1 hour, 7 minutes, 4 secondsI'm like, "Can you read some books, please, and not get off social media kind of thing. Do you know the history 1 hour, 7 minutes, 11 secondsof India?" You know, I've been reading on this for 30 years. I spent time with village folk in India who told me they 1 hour, 7 minutes, 19 secondswish the British were back.
That's never going to happen. I met businessmen in Mumbai, very successful ones, saying things like, "If the British were here, 1 hour, 7 minutes, 27 secondsthis would be one huge version of Hong Kong right now." This is in the '90s. 1 hour, 7 minutes, 31 secondsI'm not saying that's true. I'm not saying that should happen. I'm just saying it's quite a thought. 1 hour, 7 minutes, 38 secondsWe had Nigel Bigar on the show a few months ago.
Now, his work is is seen as controversial, particularly his book on colonialism and moral reckoning. 1 hour, 7 minutes, 47 secondsI think he says he's trying to I guess provide a somewhat balanced view, a balanced history of of of colonialism. 1 hour, 7 minutes, 57 secondsSo it's like you would have some sympathy for for his project. Oh, very much so. Very much so for his project. I' I've met Nigel.
He's a 1 hour, 8 minutes, 5 secondsfriend of mine. I've read his work and especially the parts on India and you know he's he's spot on and 1 hour, 8 minutes, 15 secondsit's nuance we're lacking nuance it's either this algorithm or that one you know you know if you read Kartal's work 1 hour, 8 minutes, 23 seconds1864 when Glaston was prime minister he said why aren't there any Indian judges in India 1 hour, 8 minutes, 32 secondsright Lord Ripple the viceroy of the time in India passed law that you can have Indian judges but they couldn't 1 hour, 8 minutes, 40 secondsmake it to England so easily so they started a civil service in India very soon you had brown Indian judges preciding over cases where they were 1 hour, 8 minutes, 49 secondswhite defendants so Gandhi did say like you know okay we don't we want to we want self-ruule but 1 hour, 8 minutes, 57 secondsyou can't argue that the British weren't fair and that's the same thing quasiang said in an interview when he wrote his book on on on Ghana. 1 hour, 9 minutes, 7 secondsOkay, we didn't want them there, but you can't argue that they weren't fair, right? 1 hour, 9 minutes, 14 secondsSo, the objection here, I don't know the literature well, but the the objection will be that there was a lot more bad 1 hour, 9 minutes, 23 secondsthan good. they'll objectors will claim if you really get into the history the the the 1 hour, 9 minutes, 31 secondsmoral record of the British is a lot more checkered but you would push back against that it's a lot more good than bad I'm aware 1 hour, 9 minutes, 39 secondsof the Jalian Walabag massacre 1919 April I'm aware of the uprising of 1857 1 hour, 9 minutes, 47 secondsright but then Hindu kings emperors the way they 1 hour, 9 minutes, 54 secondsinvaded kingdoms.
Right? Let's just take one example very quickly. 1 hour, 10 minutesVictoria Terminis is a railway station in Mumbai built by the British. The Hindu right in India when they came to 1 hour, 10 minutes, 7 secondspower they renamed it Chhatrabati Shivaji who was a who was an emperor prince okay 1 hour, 10 minutes, 15 secondsof the Marata Empire. So there were other empires in India. The British ruled most of it until 1857.
Then all of it after 1857. 1 hour, 10 minutes, 25 secondsWhen Marata in Empire invaded Bengal, it's documented they raped women. They 1 hour, 10 minutes, 33 secondskilled children. Where did the remaining children run? If you read the history books, they ran into the fort of the East India Company for protection. 1 hour, 10 minutes, 45 secondsMy point is that you've got to look at the whole context of India 1 hour, 10 minutes, 51 secondsand what was going on in that world at that time.
It wasn't just these princes sitting on their beautiful thrones with 1 hour, 11 minutesall of this, you know, gold around them and having a lovely day and there was no brutality, there was no evil. I mean, you've got to 1 hour, 11 minutes, 9 secondsbe naive to believe that, right? Or you just haven't read. So of course there were the odd atrocities but 1 hour, 11 minutes, 19 secondsthere was far far more good you know 70% of all the independent hospitals in 1 hour, 11 minutes, 26 secondsIndia today are Christian 80% of schools are Christian where did these guys all study CEO of Google Sundar Bichai St. 1 hour, 11 minutes, 36 secondsStevens New Delhi CEO of Microsoft Satya Nadella where did he study St.
Stevens, New Delhi. Where did the former CEO of 1 hour, 11 minutes, 43 secondsTwitter study Anil Lagraval St. Stevens New Delhi where did the guy at the World Bank Mr. Banga currently right now 1 hour, 11 minutes, 52 secondshead of the World Bank where did he study? St. Stevens, New Delhi. Where do all the Hindus for decades send their kids to study? 1 hour, 12 minutesSt. Stevens. [laughter] Most of the Christian schools, St.
Ans, St. Xavier's, right? So 1 hour, 12 minutes, 7 secondsgoodness me even like we have a issue in Britain of the cast system you know 1 hour, 12 minutes, 16 secondswhere they try to build put a law in parliament in our British Parliament because of cast discrimination in this country between Indians. 1 hour, 12 minutes, 26 secondsThe California High Court fined Cisco, an Indian tech company run by an Indian team for cast discrimination. 1 hour, 12 minutes, 37 secondsSo cast discrimination came into law in America, in Atlanta, in Portland and on the West Coast.
Okay. 1 hour, 12 minutes, 45 secondsDecades before that in India, the Brits said, "No, you're all equal under the law. There is no cast structure." Right. 1 hour, 12 minutes, 56 secondsDalits are allowed school. Women's are allowed school. These very basic things that the Indians just take for granted 1 hour, 13 minutes, 5 secondstoday. There will be quotas for the low cast in universities. 1 hour, 13 minutes, 10 secondsThere will be quotas for this cast in institutions.
When I was in my monk training period in the monastery, I was 1 hour, 13 minutes, 19 secondstalking to a friend in the compound and then I turned around as I was going back into my room and a boy waved to me from 1 hour, 13 minutes, 27 secondsthe gate of the temple. So I waved him in. I said, "Come in. Come and say hi." And he just stood there. So I got a little frustrated and I said and I 1 hour, 13 minutes, 35 secondswalked over to him about 50 60 m.
It was a big combo. I said, "Why don't you come in?" He said, "I'm a dulllet. I can't 1 hour, 13 minutes, 44 secondseven touch you. And he was right. If he touched me, I'd have to take a bath. 1 hour, 13 minutes, 49 secondsNow, in society, that still exists. Even though the British tried to abolish this whole thing of unfairness. 1 hour, 13 minutes, 57 secondsSo, you've got to look at the bigger picture.
I'm not saying the Brits should go back in to India today, you know, but 1 hour, 14 minutes, 6 secondseverything Indians value today, the freedoms, the very concept of freedom or independence, 1 hour, 14 minutes, 15 secondsyou know, it's from Britain. You you were given these tools even the concept of a political party by Alexander 1 hour, 14 minutes, 23 secondsOctavian whom start a party 1830s cuz soon you'll need to govern start 1 hour, 14 minutes, 30 secondssomething. So the Congress party was a British idea you know so I think 1 hour, 14 minutes, 37 secondswe just need to calm down a little and stop hating ourselves a bit too much. 1 hour, 14 minutes, 44 secondsIt's it's absolutely fascinating. really you really have a unique perspective on that given your your own 1 hour, 14 minutes, 52 secondsum biography.
So thank you for that and that will offer I think our viewers and listeners a lot to reflect upon. Of course people will have their own views 1 hour, 15 minutesand disagree but it's it's good to have those perspectives. Now just as we wrap up you've got a new book coming out in about what about six months time. Yeah. 1 hour, 15 minutes, 10 secondsUh do you want to tell us about it briefly?
Chapter 12: How Christians Can Reach Hindus Better
1 hour, 15 minutes, 12 secondsThank you. It's precisely on what we talked about earlier on how to sort of 1 hour, 15 minutes, 21 secondsenter into the world of a Hindu and how they see life pain suffering purpose meaning and how can we offer Christ. So 1 hour, 15 minutes, 30 secondsthe book is called bridging worlds of Hinduism and Christianity understanding Hindu thought and practice. So understanding the 1 hour, 15 minutes, 39 secondspractices, understanding that world and then how can you minister and offer Christ as the 1 hour, 15 minutes, 47 secondsfulfillment of that world. So that book looks at 10 to 12 key themes across all Hindu 1 hour, 15 minutes, 57 secondsreligions because you can't write a book on Hinduism in one volume.
But what are the key practices that you find across most Hindu traditions? What are they? 1 hour, 16 minutes, 8 secondsHow are they performed? And how can Christ come into that as the fulfillment? So that's coming out in February 1 hour, 16 minutes, 17 secondsand it's IVP in North America who are publishing it. 1 hour, 16 minutes, 21 secondsExcellent. Excellent. Look forward to that. Well, Rael, it's been such a fascinating conversation from your 1 hour, 16 minutes, 28 secondsown story to philosophy and theology and reflections on the relationship between Christianity and Hinduism and then 1 hour, 16 minutes, 35 secondsfinishing up on these cultural issues.
[music] Just just fascinating. So, thank you so much for your time. 1 hour, 16 minutes, 43 secondsThank you very much. It was a pleasure to be here and spend time with you. Thank you. 1 hour, 16 minutes, 47 secondsAnd to [music] our viewers and listeners, thank you for joining us and we'll be back in two weeks time. Take care.
